The Tim Haines Show – Ep. 29
“The Fisher-More Drama”
March 5, 2014
“The Fisher-More Drama”
March 5, 2014
I must admit, I found the struggles at Fisher-More College pretty cut and dry because of Dr. Marshall. I hold him in high esteem. But, an interesting perspective came about on a blog that I read, and I wanted to share it here. "When the small traditional Catholic Fisher More College brings a controversial speaker to its campus like Fr. Gruner and question parts of Vatican II, they are punished by their bishop and not allowed to have the Holy Latin Mass on their campus. At the same time, throughout the United States and the world, there are so many so called "Catholic" colleges and universities that are going against what the Catholic Church teaches. Many of them completely disagree with Church's teaching on homosexuality, abortion and birth control. They invite Drag Shows, "The Vagina Monologues" and pro-abortion/homosexual marriage speakers to their graduation commencements. I studied philosophy for one year at the Jesuit University of Santa Clara in Santa Clara California. They are one of the "Gay Friendly" Universities. Here is a list of "Catholic Colleges and Universities that are homosexual friendly. I am sorry to have to put this list here, but it is important to see how many and how far our supposedly "Catholic Colleges and Universities" have gone against the Bible and the 2000 year tradition of Jesus' Catholic Church. http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/ I find this quite telling, don't you? I wonder how many, if any, Catholic Colleges and Universities in Bishop Olson's diocese are on the list supplied by this Priest. But then, I wonder why such excellent gents who proclaim Truth quite well, continue to bash the few Catholics who generally place the word Tradtional before the word Catholic. (You know, those Traditional Catholics that see the problem being the overwhelming number of modernists who boldly are misrepresenting Church Teaching and leading souls toward sin/hell as mentioned in Father's list of colleges and universities as well as the groups attending the L.A. religious educators conference this weekend.)
I don't find it telling at all. I think it's outrageous that this blog is saying Fisher-More is being punished for being traditional. They should be punished for being rebels, but they aren't being punished for that either. In fact they're not being punished at all. The Bishop is exercising his prerogative and doing his duty to guard the faith, protect the faithful, and uphold what the Magisterium demands. Pointing to one heresy here does not forgive another heresy there. If the blogger feels there's a double-standard in that diocese, let him point one out rather than speculate ("they get you to paint the picture exactly how they want it painted...saying things without saying them...letting the reader/viewer do the dirty work for them" Remember?). I think you should stop reading those traditional blogs, because they're just feeding you drama and keeping reality away from you. By the books, it's the same tactic that Cultists use to brainwash their members. And believe me, MANY Catholics out there are brainwashed, and as departed from reason as any member of a cult. The biggest threat to the Church is the imbalance of the faithful. History has shown that again and again. It will be no different this time around. Balance, sister. Balance. The truth lives in the balance. Not in the margins.
Tim, I am so totally thrown with your anger toward those traditional bloggers. You speak of balance; yet, you close your eyes to the "numbers" of heretical and out of balance modernist Catholics. I'm sorry, but I do not have your expanded names of rad trads, trads, and whatever else you label Catholics. Wilson gets this smile on his face whenever he is about to blast what he labels "Traditional" Catholics". Guys, I don't see Traditional Catholics making too many headlines...they may be, as you say, "out of balance" (by the way, this Priest seems to believe -- as others as well -- that the magesterium does not equal Vat II) because they do not bend their knee for Vat II, BUT (that is a big but) they are not selling the homosexual, ss marriage, abort (kill babies in their womb), contraception, poison the Faithful garbage that most modernist claim to be Catholics are. Here, in small town USA, I don't see the "fringes" which I keep trying to stress. Traditional Catholics, here in small town usa, Love God and love their neighbor. Some attend N.O. Masses, and some attend TLM and both are fine with that. All are trying to come to Know God, through the Scriptures, through the Catechism, through the Saints, through the Fathers, through "great" writers of the Faith, Aquinas and today's, Dr. Peter Kreeft. All are blessed by the Deposit of Faith; all are faithful to the magisterium. That is small town usa in a nutshell. We are not "x" number of types of Catholics...we are either on board or leading others to Hell. As for the Priest, I am really surprised that you didn't see the irony that he saw (again, I did not agree with him because F/M College needs some purging...I honor Dr. Marshall for stepping forward and sharing how he was suddenly gone from the college that my 2 in college had looked into and were wondering what was happening with him, Dr. Marshall, at that time.) A small Catholic College with immediate and severe action vs. Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College (where Dr. Kreeft works and shares about), and how many more (in Cleveland, John Carroll comes to mind immediately) that are, have been and continue to be leading souls to hell on a gross number vs. maybe 2 dozen.
I'm not the one blind to the facts here, sister. I'm the only one embracing them. You're on a very dark path, and you've allowed yourself to be lead there by people who are themselves misinformed, and are misinforming you. You are not being rational, you aren't being reasonable, and you only want to hear the truths that validate your preconceptions. I'm angry at these imbecilic "traditional bloggers" because of what they do to good people like you. I'm giving you the truth. They're giving you confusion. Its up to you to break the cycle that people like them have put you on. You hold the key. The victory will be yours, or the failure will be yours. Its for you to decide. God love you
Is that your Jimmy Cagney impresssion? I must be dum as dirt...You say you are embracing facts...what facts? Have you gone to their website? Did anyone else responding go to their website? You tell me that I'm on a very dark path, I've allowed myself to be lead there, I'm not rational, reasonable and I only want to hear the truths that validate my preconceptions. Nay, I say. Let's go over the main points... 1. I thought the Priest made a very good point about this small school was being "corrected" vs. the enormous Catholic schools that aren't and haven't been. His point about it being "Traditional" wasn't the main point to me, rather it was the jump to correct a small school vs. nothing being done with the enormous schools. 2. I cannot believe you and Wilson have such disdain for the T word. At least once per week you guys find joy in bashing T Catholics. If I am the first to bring this up to you both, then I am honestly surprised. 3. Just because I read some blogs, doesn't mean I agree with all that is said or maybe even half that is said, yet you jump to that conclusion. 4. I believe I've mentioned before that much of my information about the Catholic Church in the U.S. has come from Michael Voris. He has provided facts that were missing since the early '60s and before. 5. The names and accusations you make about me are floating in the air...please connect the dots if you are so concerned about 'good people like me'. 6. Final point about the EF Mass, the N.O. Mass, and the OF Mass (yesteryear's ordinary form Mass)... from what I recall, the EF Mass was not offered "extraodinarily" for they were offered at our Church simultaneously with the OF Mass each Sunday...one in the upstairs Church and one in the downstairs Church. There were many faithful and holy Catholics who saw what was happening back then (not me, I am only 57) and wrote and spoke of what was occurring. Do you dismiss Von Hildebrand and others who were not blind to the times? 7. Please show respect and clarity and oodles of patience with someone who is always looking to learn, but not always just willing to swallow.
Don't mean to interrupt the argument, but Cheeriosinmypocket, as I see it, it is clear that modernism, both in and out The Church, is consistently, and rightly I might add, attacked by Tim, along with OTTT (Over the top traditionalism). I would say that Tim makes it clear that the TLM can be wonderful. So I don't see where your anger is coming from. There is no need for it.
Hi Daniel, I think I've been a fan of Vericast for near a year...I discovered it in May last year, and was impressed with Tim's philosophical arguments (Wilson was away...ill, I believe for a few weeks). I was struck by his sharing of desire to learn the Faith when he was 13 or 14 years old...I thought, WOW, I'm a mere child in discovering the depths of our Faith compared to him - thus I took the name catholicchild. Then Wilson came back and his joy in sharing the Faith was complimentary with Tim's more serious (mischievous) and at times an explosion of righteous anger. I'm sure you're thinking get to it lady, and I'm trying. Last Fall some time the guys started sharing about Rad-Trads, Sedevacants, and other names of which I had never heard. I must be honest...I don't know of anyone who fits those "types." I guess they are out there tho...for around these parts, you have ms stemodern/cafeteria Catholics or Traditional Catholics. We don't even have degrees as you just said, OTTT. And then, if I had half a brain I could recall when "it" happened, but they did some sort of show about Traditional/Traditionalist/Traditionalism...and it wasn't pretty. Ever since then, particularly within the last month or two, it's like those guys that are walking along and punch someone all of a sudden, I hear this Bash! about Traditional Catholics and it becomes a rant and it really stings the ears of those who love God, love the Faith, and are daily trying to grow (learning, learning and sharing with others). If you sense anger, that is from whence it approacheth. But I must say, I am less angry than confused by what I am being accused of/warned about. God bless!
Are you being accused? If you love the latin traditions of the Church then all power to you in my opinion, in fact i myself adore our universal language and find there can be deep reverance in a EF Mass. But just beware, the aestetics of the Mass, the sounds of the Mass, to not trump the Mass. The NO is good. Thats the warning. They are different styles of worshiping the Eucharist. The main problem with the Latin Mass today is that people, globally, are rarly taught it. In England, even Catholic schools (along with everything else Catholic) don't teach Latin. Therefore a solution had to be found that still allowed people to hear the Gospel, the prayers and truly participate at Mass. So NO is a must, and i must be the standard. However, Latin is an integreal part of Catholic identity, its is part of what makes the Church universal, so it is vital (imo) that the TLM is wide used to celebrate Mass. Of late there have been worrying signs of People denying the validity of NO say that EF is the only valid Mass. This is blatant disobedience to The Magisterium. So I think thats whats been happening. Everybody, I think, just want to honor God and ensure nobody is commiting a sin. Balance is the way. The NO needs to be implimented correctly, and the EF too. Is that helping? I hope so. Point is you yourself are not doing anything wrong. The hereatics are the people who want to eliminate the EF and the people who want to eliminate the NO. God Bless!!
I'm going to be more concise than I was a moment ago (I wrote, then deleted my original reply) because I think maybe keeping it clean will help you understand more clearly what I am trying to convey. I also feel your thinking is a little mis-focused by what people are telling you about Traditional Catholicism, so maybe I should take different steps in correcting/informing you. We have no disdain for Tradition. We love our traditions and defend them constantly, not just on the air, but in our personal lives. But we do have disdain for what Catholics have done with the word "Tradition", how they have leveraged their drama to entrance and enslave (and ensnare) innocent Catholics, how they use fear to rally them. That is not Tradition, it's someone's take on Tradition and it's drop dead ridiculous. It finds no accord with REAL tradition, traditional and established theology, or the mindset of the Traditional/Legacy Church (meaning...the Catholic Church they want to "restore"). It's not tradition AT ALL it's a distortion of tradition that fits their disposition, and their lie is so thick that it has you and many thousands of others convinced. Whom your information came from doesn't make a difference to me. Michael Voris, or Moses. If the information is erroneous, or if it leads to error, then it's wrong. Plain and simple. I'm not trying to spoonfeed you, I'm trying to empower you to think for yourself. I'm trying to give you the truth, not my take on it. I'm giving you Catholicism, not Catholic-isms (do you know the difference?). I'm not calling you names, I'm pointing out your flaws. Not to taunt you, but to help you to fix them by showing you why they're flaws. You too often resort to the "Radical Traditionalist" propaganda and their signature tactics. You may not realize that it's RadTrad propaganda and tactics....I understand that. But when I try to tell you, you reject what correction I'm giving you. Do you see the problem here? You've chosen what you want to believe, rather than choosing what is the truth. I'm giving you the truth. I'm giving you balance. I'm not brainwashing you and calling it "information" I'm empowering you to learn, and to know. And you reject it, and reject it, and reject it whenever "Traditionalism" is the subject, because you'd rather believe what the imbalanced radicals are telling you. That is fine. That is your prerogative. But try debating it with Christ when he returns and asks you "Why weren't you loyal to my Church unquestionably?" I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to teach and correct you because I care about you, and I'm fed up with what "Traditional Catholic" bloggers have done to you, and to others like you. Tim
That is a good answer. Thank you, dear Brother, and remember I do support you and Wilson most heartedly. My bad. To clear up one portion, I did not get any information from Michael Voris regarding Fisher/More. My 3 sources...not the Traditional Priest...have evolved. First was from Taylor Marshall (he has a chip on his shoulder from his parting with the school, so it may not be the best I could find after all ... mea culpa. Next came from the school website itself. My third has come from SKEEOH, Alex posted an interesting link. So, Michael Voris has not been involved in this at all. Thank you for your concern for my soul. I will remove 2 traditional sites from my view as penance. Thanks, again, for your concern and know you and Wilson are always in our prayers. May God's abundant blessings be upon you this day and always. Mariann
Robin Poe - You are making assumptions or trying to spread gossip. I am not sure which one. However, the FSSP did not withdraw from the school. If you would have bothered to call them, you would know that. The two FSSP priests were either removed (the first) or transferred (the second) due to internal matters of the FSSP. It had nothing to do with the school or lack of support for the school or the mission of the school. FYI - the FSSP only celebrates the TLM. They do not celebrate the NO Mass in any form, not even in Latin. FMC has a traditional Catholic mission. It is not for everyone but then it does not have to be. If you are not a Traditional Catholic, there are lots of other schools you can attend that will offer the NO Mass for you.
I don't think she's making assumptions, I think she's voicing what—to my experience—every source has stated. If the information is wrong, correct THEM. FSSP would never say "Yeah, we pulled out of Fisher-More. That's just now how they operate, and it's not how anyone in the Church operates. Church agencies tend to keep their business to themselves (or between each other). Where is your information coming from, and why is it more trustworthy? Serious question, I'm not taunting you. Even if they were transferred, it's odd that they weren't replaced, since the FSSP operate in other places in the area. To be a "Traditional Catholic" means you're just Catholic because all Catholics are traditional, technically. If you have to put "Traditional" in there, then you're not a Catholic, you're a protestant receiving communion. All Catholics are traditional. But we don't presume to define what "traditional" involves, above and beyond the Magisterium. Tradition doesn't mean being the Catholic equivalent of the Amish. It means incorporating tradition into the whole. Which is what Catholicism is to this very day. Many so-called "Traditional Catholics" reject the whole in favor of the extraordinary. That's not even "Traditional" actually it's contemporary-minded. Traditional MINDED Catholics—not to be confused with "Traditional Catholics"—are very much Catholic. Loving our traditions (which requires respecting, accepting, and honoring them) doesn't put one outside of the fold; in fact, rejecting our traditions does....literally. But "Traditional Catholics" are dancing on a fine line between orthodoxy and heresy; even if they don't realize it. That's not to say that people attending a TLM are necessarily heretics. But some of them are. It depends on why they're attending. Conversely, modernists are not Catholic at all. Period. Just want that to be clear. We support the TLM here, and would love to see more TLM masses being offered all over the Church-global. But we don't see it as a sanctuary from "the Novus Ordo Church" we see it as THE MASS in the extraordinary form. God be with you
It's very telling that the FSSP (VERY loyal to the Magisterium) withdrew their support. It's even more telling that the FMC thinks the Mass offered by FSSP is unacceptable. I like the idea of offering the Ordinary Form at FMC. You can actually celebrate the Ordinary Form entirely in Latin with the priest facing ad orientem (away from the people), which is fully in line with the documents of the Second Vatican Council. They even have the Ordinary Form in an appendix of the English translation of the Vatican II documents.